Kiho said:
Worse than that actually, if you live in a voting district that is primarily Democrat, or primarily Republican and you don't register as such, you have NO vote since you will not be allowed to vote in the primary elections - that is where the victor is chosen, when one party dominates a voting district. Another sinister facet of the two party system with primary elections.
Oh boy. The world we live in :)

otaku_emmy said:
That's exactly why I registered as "Independent".
Hey girl

...Oh, Kiho just said that. Sorry.
You’re so cute

The only thing I ever feel felt passionate about voting for and about getting passed was to do with the liquor laws around here. We used to be a dry county. Now we can buy beer and wine and whatever without having to drive somewhere else.
What do u mean by “somewhere else”? Like another state? Sorry if I sound stupid
mattiasc02 said:
What do u mean by “somewhere else”? Like another state? Sorry if I sound stupid
The county I live in, Davidson, used to not allow the sale of alcohol. So if you wanted to buy beer, wine, rum, liquor, vodka, gin, moonshine, etc. you'd either have to go to Lexington (which was no big deal for us) or you'd have to drive to a different county.

While Lexington is within the borders of Davidson county, they operate on their own rules. So they had alcohol already.

Buuuuuuuut we voted to change the law and now you can get your booze closer to home.
Oh I get it. Thank u!
Haven't they learned from the Prohibition period?
"Ah believe women shuld be kayupt in tha kitchen!"

Jk haha.

I do have pretty controversial beliefs at times. Well actually it's more like, my mind is pretty much open to some notions that others might find hard to believe. I definitely accept certain spiritual concepts as being, if not definite, at least possible.

I dunno because some people really bite back against religion which I often find premature.

Besides that IDK if my thoughts are all that controversial. All I know is I find myself disagreeing with people pretty frequently.
Kiho said:
eclimial, you are deluded.
Many years ago, as student in college, one of our lecturers taught us:

Never respond to a person who's argument opens with an insult
But in your case I'll take the chance!

Kiho, you are being overly cynical, ignorant and showing your naivety

Are you actually suggesting this world would be better off without a free press, only because you say much of it is supported and owned by multinationals and have lost their independence? True for some maybe, but not all.

Are you suggesting that ALL media are totally compromised by big business? This is not true!...

(I do concede, in some cases such as the deplorable Fox News they are totally bias, BUT, honest journalism has a history of not towing this line.)

In regards to Fox, yes Murdoch makes me ashamed to be Australian, Fox News are a bogus, bunch of right wing fascists, but, unfortunately, you are taring all journalists with the same brush.

Over the years investigative journalists have exposed not only corporate corruption and government crooks but also the huge amount of proven incidents of child molestation in the Catholic church.

Holy mother of god man, are you serious?

Take the case of corrupt collusion between the US government and private contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan which ripped billions out of the pockets of US taxpayers

Who were the first to uncover this scandal? - The Financial Times

The US has overwhelmingly borne the brunt of both the military and reconstruction costs, spending at least $138bn on private security, logistics and reconstruction contractors, who have supplied everything from diplomatic security to power plants and toilet paper.
An analysis by the Financial Times reveals the extent to which both American and foreign companies have profited from the conflict -- with the top 10 contractors securing business worth at least $72bn between them.
None has benefited more than KBR, once known as Kellogg Brown and Root. The controversial former subsidiary of Halliburton, which was once run by Dick Cheney, vice-president to George W. Bush, was awarded at least $39.5bn in federal contracts related to the Iraq war over the past decade.
Two Kuwaiti companies -- Agility Logistics and the state-owned Kuwait Petroleum Corporation -- are the second and third-biggest winners, securing contracts worth $7.2bn and $6.3bn respectively.
The US hired more private companies in Iraq than in any previous war, and at times there were more contractors than military personnel on the ground.
Keep in mind, private contractors where given luxurious living conditions in Kuwait, with fine food while US soldiers lived in tents in a windy desert and fed on sub standard rations. The contractors received on average 3 times the salary of the troops, the real heroes.

Would you be content to have never received this information?

(Important note, some of these contractors had multiple advertising accounts with The Financial Times, but it didn't stop the Times from publishing the facts).

Now lets look at the leaked documents pertaining the murderous actions of some US troops and corrupt behavior by the military in Afghanistan.

When Wikileaks received this massive amount of information, they knew it was to big for them to handle by themselves, so who did they turn to?

The Guardian
The New York Times
Der Spiegel

All these media outlets agreed to publish! In spite of the threat of loosing millions in advertising revenue.

Should I go on? I think not, if you don't get it by now, then God help the first amendment.

In the words of investigative journalist Bob Woodward who together with Carl Bernstein exposed the Watergate scandal which ultimately led to the downfall off a corrupt president

“It was accountability that Nixon feared.”
And who made Nixon and countless other corrupt corporations, governments and religious organisations such as Scientology and The Catholic Church accountable? ... it was the free press!

Donald Trump, you're next!

Like Nixon, Trump fears accountability, he is intrinsically linked to the huge multi national corporations that support him and he is waging a war against the free media who, on behalf of the people, seek to expose him for the crook, lying bastard he is.
eclimial, your rebuttal is all over the map. You made many statements none of which either refute or support Trump's claim re: Fake News.
  • Are you actually suggesting this world would be better off without a free press?
  • Are you suggesting that ALL media are totally compromised by big business? Not true!
  • In the case of Fox, yes Murdoch makes me ashamed to be Australian, but you are taring all journalists with with the same brush.
Several Historical references to investigative journalism:
  • Who were the first to uncover this scandal? - The Financial Times.....
  • All these media outlets agreed to publish!
    • The Guardian
    • The New York Times
    • Der Spiegel
    • ......
  • When Trump tweets "Fake News Again" what he is referring to is:
    • The persistent and systematic personal attacks on him by the MSM and a selection of politicians and unelected officials with the intent to discredit him personally, undermine his administration and compromise his policy initiatives. These attacks become especially vicious when Trump tries to deviate from the "plan" - Attempts to withdraw Miltary forces from middle east quagmires or diplomatically reaproach Russia. Traitor, traitor, traitor they cried after Trump met Putin in Helsinki.
    • Trump is not claiming that all news is Fake or that there is no investigative Journalism, rather that the MSM is protecting H Clinton (and friends) while persistantly attacking him with innuendo, rumor and outright lies. Not a single substantiated shred of truth to the RussiaGate mantra has been presented to the public.
  • The best investigative journalist in the world, without an effective venue to reach a significant audience, is no more than some common person with an opinion. This is why consolidation of so many media outlets into the control of a small handful of media oligarchs can control the public's exposure to alternative viewpoints. Both Google and Facebook have also taken action to limit access to alternative media and curtail popular bloggers.
  • The US government also exerts significant control over news organizations via control of access, whether that is to state department or white house briefings, DoD briefings or to accompany the President on Air Force One (most of the passengers are reporters btw).
  • Of course an independent, free and responsible press is crucial toward the maintenance of good governance. I do not see how you inferred that my earlier statements contradicted this statement.
  • While you point out many good historical examples of investigative journalism, there are also many historical examples of effective propaganda (fake news) as well. Both are irrelevant to the question at hand.
Never respond to a person who's argument opens with an insult.

Kiho, you are being overly cynical, ignorant and showing your naivety.
The pot calling the kettle black, eclimial?

Deluded (v): make (someone) believe something that is not true.
synonyms: mislead, deceive, fool, take in, trick, dupe
My statement, that you were deluded referred to you being in fact "duped" by the fake news and far too trusting of what you read. That is not an insult, but to call someone ignorant is....I accept that I am cynical - everyone should be at least a little cynical, especially of what they read in the news.

To infer someone is both cynical and naive is an oxymoron.

Unless you read Russian and/or Chinese news sources, you are getting only the US/UK/Australian (same thing) narrative. From your statements, it is clear that you do not. Question more eclimial.
Kiho said:

The pot calling the kettle black, eclimial?
This subject (Trump vs The Free press) is dangerously headed towards little more than a mud slinging competition, for which, to my shame I am 'partially' responsible. I stress the word 'partially', ... however I offer no apologies. It wasn't me who drew first blood. I angrily responded in kind, a bad decision on my behalf.

To suggest I am deluded was deeply offensive to me, it was an attack on my personal opinions and mental state.

If we can't make our arguments without personal insults, then we loose the spirit of this thread.

In closing:

I have conveyed, with deep conviction ALL I needed to say about Trump vs Free Press and I've made ALL the points I wanted to make. I'm content with that. It was good to get it off my chest and have no need to go further. Everything after this would only be arguments for arguments sake.

In the words of Forest Gump

... and that's all I have to say about that!
Jack Ma examines why the American economy is broken and broke:

“Over the past thirty years, the Americans had thirteen wars spending 14.2 trillion dollars,” said Ma, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos. “What if they spent a part of that money on building up the infrastructure, helping the white-collar and the blue-collar workers? No matter how strategically good it is, you’re supposed to spend money on your own people.”

“And the other money which I’m curious about is that when I was young, all I heard about America was Ford and Boeing and those big manufacturing companies. The last 10-20 years, all I heard about is Silicon Valley and Wall Street,”

“And what happened? The year 2008: the financial crisis wiped out 19.2 trillion dollars in the USA alone and destroyed 34 million jobs globally. So what if the spent on Wall Street and the Middle East was spent on the Mid-West of the United States, developing the industry there? That could change a lot.”

“So it’s not that other countries steal jobs from you guys, it is your strategy! You do not distribute the money in a proper way,”

“The WTO was great but it was mainly designed for developed countries and big companies. There’s no opportunity for small business. We want to build up an EWTP – an Electronic World Trade Platform – to support young people, small business.”

“And the other thing is that the WTO is a very interesting organization. When you put 200 government officials in one room, ask them to agree on something – it’s impossible! I can never imagine that they agree on something together. Business should be designed by business people, so we believe the EWTP should have businessmen sitting down together, agree on something, negotiate on something, then get endorsement from the government.”
I agree with what Jack Ma has to say.

The Question: The US is waging an economic war against much of the rest of the world through Tariffs and sanctions in an attempt to fix the US economy (at least the trade deficit), but without addressing the internal problems. At the end of the day, the US economy will be even less competitive and even more battered. So what is the right strategy?
Kiho said: At the end of the day, the US economy will be even less competitive and even more battered. So what is the right strategy?
Wow, that's a really good question, but hard to answer. I'm not an economist, but as a lay person, I will attempt to offer one clumsy idea, namely the demise of Detroit, Illinois. (I cover that below, but first a preamble)

“Over the past thirty years, the Americans had thirteen wars spending 14.2 trillion dollars,”
I was astounded that America has spent 14.2 trillion dollars on mostly failed wars, I knew the figure was very high, but never imagined it was that excessive, I'm shocked!. Ever since the Vietnam war America has taken the role of the worlds police force, butting their nose in other countries conflicts where they don't belong, much to the determent of the US people and their economy.

If nations wan't to tear themselves apart, then let them, The only corporations who benefit from interfering in those conflicts are the American industrial military complex, who contribute next to nothing to the US economy as they are funded by the US government and pay next to nothing in taxes.

I also totally agree with Jack Ma's comment

“What if they spent a part of that money on building up the infrastructure, helping the white-collar and the blue-collar workers? No matter how strategically good it is, you’re supposed to spend money on your own people.”
Which brings me back to Detroit, it was once the power house of auto manufacturing in the world, however it has been reduced to little more than a ghost town with thousands of jobs lost. Surely if the US government had diverted a fraction of that 14.2 trillion to auto manufactures for research and development, the American car industry would not be in such dire straits.

If we look at the list of of top 10 selling cars sold in the US in 2017, we find that that only 3 American manufacturers made the grade, and they are at the bottom of the list, how the mighty have fallen ... coming in at number one:

1. Honda Civic (Japanese)
2. Toyota Camry (Japanese)
3. Toyota Corolla (Japanese)
4. Honda Accord (japanese)
5. Nissan Altima (Japanese)
6. Nissan Sentra (Japanese)
7. Ford Fusion (USA) ... however it's manufactured in Sonora, Mexico
8. Hyundai Elantra (South Korea)
9. Chevrolet Cruze (USA) .... but, mainly Manufactured by Suzuki in Japan.
10. Chevrolet Malibu (USA) Assembly Kansas City, Kansas, not Detroit!

Kiho said: So what is the right strategy?
At this late hour I can only offer one part of the solution, but, maybe some of those 14.2 trillion dollar war funds should have been spent on head hunting some brilliant Japanese Auto Industry strategists.

It was a damn good question Kiho, has anyone have any other straightedges?